This week on The B2B Mix Show, we speak with Mike Orr of Grapevine6 about the role of personal brands and your company’s social media. If you have customer-facing employees on social media they are representing themselves and your brand. So, it’s critical to offer them help and guidance to creating an online presence that customers and potential customers view as valuable.

During our conversation, Mike points out:

  • How marketers can help customer-facing employees and leaders improve their LinkedIn presence to help them build credibility and their personal brands.
  • Why it’s important for individuals to add their own value and not solely rely on the content of the brand.
  • How training programs and mentoring/coaching can help your customer-facing employees improve their online brand.
  • What the best mix of content is to share.
  • And more!

Want to connect with Mike online?

Twitter: @mikeorr8

Twitter: @Grapevine_6 



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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1: Welcome to the B2B Mix Show with Alanna and Stacy. Each week, we'll bring you ideas that you can implement in your own marketing strategy. We'll share what we know, and advise from industry experts who will join us from time to time here on the show. Are you ready to mix it up? Let's get started.

Stacy Jackson: Hi, everyone. I'm Stacy Jackson.

Alanna Jackson: I'm Alanna Jackson, and we are the co-founders of Jackson Marketing. In case you still haven't heard, we are also sisters. We're bringing you episode 32 of the B2B Mix Show. Stacy, what's today's topic?

Stacy Jackson: Today we're going to talk about something that a lot more marketers and companies, in general, should start paying attention to. It's about how well does your company's employee LinkedIn presence reflect on themselves as thought leaders in your company, and your company brand? No doubt you've already got a few superstar social sellers in your ranks, and some social savvy execs, but just some imagine if every one of your customer-facing employees had profiles that help them and your brand shine. Today's guest, Mike Orr, co-founder of Grapevine6, is going to share his thoughts on where marketers can empower those employees, while also driving more brand-related social engagements on LinkedIn. Alanna, why don't you introduce Mike to our listeners?

Alanna Jackson: I would be honored. Mike Orr has co-founded Grapevine6 with four long time friends to make content valuable to sales. They developed the G6 mobile app and content engagement platform that applies AI to accelerate sales and marketing effort. Mike applied design thinking to develop an app that delivers relevant content for business professionals in an easy to use experience. Before launching Grapevine6, Mike worked with a team that would eventually found Grapevine6 to create a MarTech startup that was acquired by Cundari, I think is how you say it. If not, you can correct me, Mike.

Alanna Jackson: Then as the strategic leader of Cundari's digital team, Mike won a number of global awards, including two Cannes Lions and a Fast Company Innovation By Design award, and the Best of the Best in the World from MAAW, which is Marketing Agencies Association Worldwide. Mike earned a Bachelor's of Science from the University of Waterloo, and an MBA from the University of Toronto Rotman School of Management. Mike, thank you so much for joining us on the B2B Mix Show. We're excited to have you.

Mike Orr: Thanks for having me.

Stacy Jackson: Mike, before we start talking about the topic at hand, would you like to provide any background information to our listeners about Grapevine6 and what you all do there?

Mike Orr: Sure. You kind of covered it in the introduction, but after our first company got acquired, we all worked for one of Canada's leading marketing agencies, and when we were working there, we saw how brands had changed the ways that they engaged with their audiences. That was around the time that content marketing became a hot topic, and really was about providing value to your audience, to your buyers, before asking for anything. We felt that that could translate to the sales function as well, but the challenge was going to be, how do you do that at scale? How do you take that same approach to communicating value through content and then distribute it to thousands of sales people that make them individually relevant?

Mike Orr: That's where we started Grapevine6, and leveraged a lot of the technology and AI that was happening at the time to build relevance at scale. That's what we do, distribute inaudible outfit, allows you to have access to relevant content for your buyers and your audience, and build your personal brand, really, as a thought leader.

Alanna Jackson: Let's dig right into it. Selling, especially with complex or high dollar B2B deals requires rapport and trust, right? LinkedIn profiles are now playing a pretty big, significant role in that whole building of trust. A terrific profile signals that, "Hey, I think I can trust this person and his or her company," but a bad or poorly maintained profile is going to be, at best leave no impression, or maybe it leaves a terrible impression. That's not good. With more and more decision-makers checking out companies and employee profiles, it seems like kind of time for brands to think beyond just the corporate profile. What are some of the top ways that marketers can help customer-facing employees and leaders improve their LinkedIn presence to help build that credibility and their personal brands?

Mike Orr: Sure. The marketing function I think, really needs to first accept that they don't own the full brand experience anymore, that in digital, your buyers are checking out the sales people they're working with, the account executives, or even your customer support teams, whoever those buyer facing employees are. So that it needs to be a service mindset. What we've seen a lot of the time in brand marketing, is that their initial take on social is that, "Hey, I've got a whole 'nother channel I can push my content and my brand out through, and drive more website visits," or whatever that content consumption is. Really that's this idea of amplification or advocacy is a little backwards, because when you approach social in the B2B side, it should be that the brand, the corporate brand, supports the personal brand of the individuals that are facing the customers, because ultimately people are buying from people. They're not buying from companies, especially in those complex, big B2B deals.

Mike Orr: That's the first thing to kind of, a mindset shift maybe from the last few years that we've seen and had to sometimes wrestle with is that, in this case, marketing is really going to support and enable their sales people, rather than use them as a channel to distribute their content. But content still plays an important role, and the way that shift really happens is that if you think about a personal brand on LinkedIn, there's really two parts to it. One is a static part, which is your profile, and marketing certainly can help with communication and the writing of that. We've seen a lot of effort put into initiating these programs where they'll have digital editorial teams or internal writers work with those, especially the executives, the leadership teams to optimize their LinkedIn profile and really write it from a customer point of view.

Mike Orr: That's step one to establishing that baseline of a really engaging profile, which would be the same in an analog way, of designing a really effective and memorable business card. Now, you have to have an ongoing conversation. The sales cycles are taking longer, there's more touch points. It won't be that they just check out your LinkedIn profile and walk away. That'll be the opening conversation. Once you've connected with those people, marketing needs to support the continued and ongoing conversation and building up of that brand relationship at the employee level. They need to feed in their own content for those salespeople and executives to continuously have a presence on social, and be in front of their buyers. The one thing that we've seen is that, again, coming back to that marketing, coming from a brand point of view, that they'll only produce and pass on their own content.

Mike Orr: It's only first party content that's authored and created by the marketing team, but that doesn't create an authentic profile and drive any real engagement when you're down at the salesperson level. They want to share third party content that's relevant to their buyers, to really build up their reputation and that trust as somebody that's in the know, that is a thought leader potentially, if they're adding their own commentary, but at least is very current on what's happening in their industry, and is somebody that I can trust, because they're not ignoring, they're actually paying quite a bit attention to what's going on with their competitors, and with the industry, and where our market is going. There's those two elements, that you have to serve both of them to build an effective program.

Stacy Jackson: Where do you think that the biggest, I don't know if the word's disconnect, or issues are, when it comes to customer facing employees and their LinkedIn presence? I guess it all starts with, is the profile set up to be an a resume or a personal brand builder? Also, are they actively engaging? Do they know how to engage? Where do you think the biggest problems come into play when it comes to those customer facing LinkedIn profiles?

Mike Orr: Sure. I think the market generally is past the idea of LinkedIn or any of those social networks that you're using for sales to be just a resume and a place to go find your next job, which actually is a sales process unto itself. You need to think about it a little bit shifted of, what can I do for you in my current role? Rather than, what can I do for you in the next role that you want to give me? I think the biggest challenge is that they don't know what the best practices are around engaging with other people's content, and being able to produce their own content. Either they think there's a bunch of risk involved in that. In some cases, you may have a bunch of regulatory compliance that you need to deal with, but even on the brand side, not knowing what to say, is partly not wanting to say the wrong thing.

Mike Orr: The other thing that we've run into in some of the bigger programs has been, you can get through that process of building the LinkedIn profile and have everyone understand how to use the tools, but when they get there they just don't know what to talk about. That's really the biggest gap is, they don't engage because they don't start putting their own presence out there and try and go out and engage their audience. That's where you need programs that really support those people through training and technology, to make it a habit to engage continuously in social networks, because that's where you're going to get the real value at the end.

Alanna Jackson: Do you think that someone should have an outside party add feedback to helping develop the LinkedIn profile to say, maybe someone that would be a potential customer, or someone that is a customer to say, "Hey, if you came to my LinkedIn profile, would I be someone you would work with?"

Mike Orr: For sure, yeah. There's a woman that we work with that told me this. Her name's Leslie Hughes. I think it was her that told me, you should have a peer review your profile. You should have a customer review your profile, and you should have your spouse or someone in your family review your profile, because you do want to be able to make sure that it's authentic. I think that's the most important thing, is that it is authentically you at the end of the day. It's not your company. It's not just the standard marketing copy, because that's not how people build trust. They build trust with authentic people that they can recognize on the other side.

Mike Orr: Then also you want it to be written in your audience's language. Being able to put it in front of a customer, existing or prospect, and get feedback on, "Does this actually address your needs?" That's the most important thing that you're trying to serve. It needs to be based on your capabilities, but it needs to be written in the language that addresses their specific needs.

Alanna Jackson: Yeah, and that's what I was thinking, because a lot of times we think that we write something that sounds really great, and we get it on our own side, but maybe our prospective clients would look at it and be like ... Maybe you're speaking two different languages, because the people you're needing to reach are talking one way, but you're speaking in a different way. I think I agree with you, that it's definitely good to have other people look at that and give you some input.

Mike Orr: When you have a company that's started by engineers, it took every single conversation that we had where we would talk to anybody that was in marketing to say, "Stop talking about your product. Stop talking about yourself. Start talking about what you're doing for your customers. What are the outcomes? What are their problems?"

Stacy Jackson: Why? We love our products.

Mike Orr: inaudible keep falling. Everyone keeps falling into that trap because that's what you know. But even when you're out trying to find a job, really, what you should be doing is trying to solve your potential employer's problems. That's the way you should position your messaging. It's just unnatural somewhat, so you have to work at it. It's hard.

Alanna Jackson: Hey, folks, let's take a break to hear about today's sponsor.

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Alanna Jackson: We are back.

Stacy Jackson: When it comes to how marketers can get involved and maybe they need to obviously change their mindset from just talking at the brand level, what are some best practices to help them put together, I don't know if we call it an employee advocacy program or social selling? What should they be doing? What types of guidance should they provide? What would a best practice program look like?

Mike Orr: We just actually ran an event with a bunch of our clients to get some feedback into, what are the practices that are working well for them, and have them sort of knowledge share amongst themselves. I think taking those kinds of opportunities is a great way to learn what is effective in different situations and different types of companies, because one size doesn't fit all. A lot of what really works is to work with that sales group as a partnership, to enable a social selling or digital selling program.

Mike Orr: I don't really like calling things advocacy, because I feel that it does have that connotation in history now that it's much more about getting more impressions on the brand content than it is about building the brand of the employee, which I think should be the objective of a mature program. Once you establish that partnership, then you can develop the empathy that understands, how does this person need to engage with their buyers and what roles are they trying to influence and how are they trying to get in front of them? Then, you can work to design the training that speaks to them. Much in the same way you're trying to speak to their audience and marketing is trying to speak to the buyers, they need to craft their communications in a way that speaks to the motivations of those employees.

Mike Orr: That's why marketing is great at it, because that's what their expertise is. They can identify, "Here's the needs of my salespeople, and here's the language that makes sense for them. I can craft the communications of here's what the benefits are, the best practices, and then continuously reinforce that." A couple of ways that our clients do that is to have a regular support call, or a webinar that they invite leaders that are doing well, either in employees or executives or salespeople, the ones that have really embraced this and the early adopters, to really use them to coach their peers.

Mike Orr: One of our biggest clients is SAP, and they built their program by training sales executives in the field across the world. Rather than trying to scale it up through a specific training team, they actually made sure they had expert resources embedded in each of the geographies that they cover. I think it's up to 200 different people, and they make sure that they get the most current training. They bring them in for certain events and have a direct line.

Mike Orr: That's the way you can scale the programs. You have these experts you've developed, that can cover a region, or a group, or a team. If that team has questions, they don't have to come back to the one person or half person that marketing has allocated to run this program. They have peers that they can go to for those best practices.

Alanna Jackson: I think sometimes having peers and mentors really makes a difference, because sometimes a training program, while you get a lot out of it, it's like you're there, you get it, and then you are done. But having that ongoing relationship with someone who is a mentor or a coach, to help you really put it into action, I think can sometimes speak volumes and really take them to the next level. Do you see that as something that really pushes it, and pushes someone to take that next step and move up?

Mike Orr: For sure. What you're trying to do is build and establish new habits, and habits take time to form. It's not just attending a training session that, all of a sudden now you're going to have the continuous actions that are really going to make a difference in social, in the long run. The fact that you share a piece of content or you rewrite your profile, is not going to close a deal. That deal is going to take 30 to 60 steps. Some of those are going to be in social, and if you don't build that habit and reinforce that habit, through really looking at your peers and understanding what they're doing, and being constantly reminded, you're not going to follow through. That habit's not going to get ingrained, and you're going to lose out in the long run.

Mike Orr: You can't keep running. You can't keep bringing these people in to run training every month, because they have to spend time actually selling and doing the work. Some people will communicate how people are doing in their groups as a way to motivate and remind. You can give them an idea of how they're doing. Collect, what are the benchmarks? Those are ways to nudge that behavior, and keep them engaged in the program, because like a lot of things you do in sales, it's not the one thing. It's the collection of things that builds trust. Sometimes it's the one thing that you do that can lose trust, but to build it certainly takes a series of actions that you're going to take. That's why those habits are so important.

Stacy Jackson: What KPIs would you recommend that marketers and salespeople should be tracking to understand if their social selling program is having an impact? Obviously more leads and sales, but are there other things that you would recommend monitoring?

Mike Orr: For sure. There's a lot of leading indicators in social and digital selling that ultimately translate into those sales. One of the things that, in all digital and sales behaviors, everyone always wrestles with is attribution of, if you had 30 different touch points with a customer, which one made the difference? We look at some of the indicators from the networks themselves.

Mike Orr: If you're using LinkedIn Sales Navigator, you can track your social selling index. You can actually individually track it, but if your company is using LinkedIn Sales Navigator, they can aggregate those metrics and see any impact on the social selling index over time, the activity, so sharing continuously over time, driving engagement with those shares. Are people actually reading things that you're posting? Those are important metrics to calibrate the program, identify the leaders, and then the training opportunities as well. Who are the people that we want to model, and how do we get to the people that need to change those behaviors still?

Mike Orr: We do find that much like a lot of programs, again, that attribution is really challenging. Some of the anecdotal, some of the stories that salespeople have around some of their contexts, not even knowing that they were in this business, that found out about it because of social and reached out. Maybe they reached out in person, or made a phone call because you were already connected, but then asked about the opportunity and referenced that your activity in social and guiding them to understanding is what you actually did. Those stories are great to model behavior as well. Much in the same way that we're now selling, using stories, you're selling this program. You want to use those stories and collect them as well.

Mike Orr: Finally, I'd say the other metric that's really interesting for marketers is to have a view and understanding of what type of content is being shared, and what's driving engagement to whatever degree you can. With our platform, you can see what sources of third party content are most engaging, what topics are most engaging, and you can actually redirect your editorial and the content that you're creating, to the most effective and engaging topics that your sales people are actually sharing with their buyers. That's a great way to close the feedback loop and actually improve the quality of your marketing, based on your new knowledge that's gained from your social selling program.

Alanna Jackson: Let me run into the next thing that I was going to ask you, because a minute ago we talked about how some people get stuck on just talking about themselves. The best mix of content is going to be, that's it, a mix. It's going to be curated plus your branded content. Is there a certain that you should be looking at, like 80/20, 70/30, so that people feel like they're doing the right mix and not over-saturating on, say, their brand?

Mike Orr: For sure. I think it's a little bit subjective, but generally the point of view is, you want to be authentic, so you want to embrace or represent your personal brand. Some people will be all about their job, the company that they work for, and that's a big part of their brand. They're going to talk about everything that their company does. For most people, they have more to themselves than just their company, or they're really engaged in what's happening in the industry, or their clients' industries. That's going to dominate. We usually see that our clients are recommending a guideline around 80% is other people's content, and 20% is your content. You want to share third party content, you want to go engage with other people's content, whether you're sharing it or just commenting on it.

Mike Orr: Some of your personal brand is going to be the company that you work for, and the work that you do, and hopefully you really enjoy it. You're going to want to share that as well. We've actually seen some customers go from where they're recommending a high amount of brand content and a small amount of third party content, and not having a lot of engagement when people are sharing that content, to flipping the ratio, and sharing a lot more third party content can actually drive even more engagement on their own content, when it's not every single thing that they're talking about or the majority. Even when you're sharing it to a lower degree, you'll actually drive more engagement overall, because now it feels like it's authentic and it makes sense that you've handpicked this piece to share. It's not just, "I've shared everything my company ever produced and that's all I ever talk about".

Alanna Jackson: How often should somebody share just a thought, or they've had this experience and want to engage the audience and say, you know, "How do you deal with this on your end?", where they're not sharing a link to an article or something like that. It's just truly just their thoughts in a post. How often should people be doing that?

Mike Orr: I think it goes to your personality, again. I know some people that do training, and that distill a lot of insights from practices or research that they've done. They're just naturally good at engaging their networks. Almost everything they do, even if it's sharing third party content, or a link, or an article or something, they're always prompting for that engagement in conversation. But that again, is somewhere you want to aspire to be. I think one of the challenges that we've seen in any of these content initiatives is, it's a lot of work. For example, we work with a lot of financial advisors where, some of them decided, "Hey, we're going to all write a blog post every week", and that was a great idea, a great way to engage their audience, and then they haven't a blog post in four years. They wrote three and that was it.

Mike Orr: Some of them, they're on top of it, but that's the exception. You want to set the bar to a certain achievable level and then just keep moving it up slowly rather than trying to get everyone to be the power user or super user, I think, in social.

Alanna Jackson: You mentioned it's a lot of work. Do you have tips that can help people develop their presence without that becoming their job? Maybe there's 10 to 15 minutes a day of things that they should be doing to gradually get to that point, or do they need to spend a lot of time up front and then it goes to a 10 to 15 minutes a day? Are there tips or a strategy that you would recommend?

Mike Orr: For sure. I would say, for me anyways, mobile is a really important part of social. It allows for the in between times, finding the 10 to 15 minutes, it could be in three minute increments that you spread out through the day of, you're waiting in line. If you don't necessarily want to check your email every single time, you can take a quick look on social and see what the current activity is that you want to engage with. That's an easy way to go out and engage with a few peoples' posts, drive a bit of interest. If somebody uses a scheduling tool like ours that finds content and helps you post it, is a really effective way just to reduce the time in discovery, is our big objective, because the challenge in sharing content is that it takes a lot of work to find it, so if the content can just find you, that makes that part easier.

Mike Orr: Then I would say that, be selective on where you spend the most time. It may be that you're doing a very light engagement and you just liking or sharing something that you've seen. It may be that you recognize this is shared by a prospect, or it's something that you know something a bit more about. You're going to spend the time to read the content, think about it, write a relevant comment. You don't have to do that every time, so don't get overwhelmed. Start building those habits that you can actually keep and reinforce. I find, the mobile thing helps out a lot in that. Then, having a couple of tools that can help you schedule your presence so that you are always on, even when you're not.

Stacy Jackson: I have a question for you about, have you noticed that organizations that do want to embrace this kind of content, and helping reps build their personal brand, have marketers or other leaders ever tried to take too much control, or inject too much into the sales peoples' or other customer facing people's profiles? How can you protect your profile from that?

Mike Orr: Yeah, it can be tricky. Some of it's necessary for regulatory reasons. If you're selling financial instruments or something like that, there's certain must-dos in policy. Usually what we've seen is much more of an opt-in policy. You don't require them to, to participate. You set out a clear policy, and you go sell it and you say, "Okay, let's start with a group of people that are engaged. Prove the value and understand that practices that actually work, and then we'll cascade that down." It will take work. I haven't seen it really forced on any group of people.

Mike Orr: Usually you can't even, because one of the big things that brands don't always recognize and companies don't always recognize, is that the social property, your identity, is your own property. It's not the company's property, and you have to treat it that way, but you have to get their permission to help them. You go into any sales organization, and if they're not spending half their day on LinkedIn, they're not going to be around much longer. I think that the sales organization is there. They want the help, they want be able to opt-in and they'll and if they don't, it's because you're not designing the program right. You're overstepping and trying to force them to do something they don't want to do.

Mike Orr: I think a lot of organizations, and I remember talking to one five years ago that said, "Why do I want these people to spend more time on LinkedIn when they're spending half their day there already?" Salespeople will do occasionally things that aren't driving value in the end, but if they're spending half their day there, then they're definitely doing it for a purpose.

Alanna Jackson: There's a good reason.

Mike Orr: There's going to be revenue attached to that at some point, so yes, you do want to encourage those behaviors.

Alanna Jackson: We have one last question for you. It's kind of a fun one, so don't get too worried about it. If you weren't at Grapevine6, what would your dream pursuit or career be?

Mike Orr: That is a good one. I'm sure there's a lot of them I there that I could pursue. One of the really cool things that I got a chance to work on while I was at the agency, you mentioned the design thinking, was I learned that at business school, I did some practical applications of that, but one of the really cool things that we got to do was to work with one of the researchers at the Hospital for Sick Children here in Toronto. It was building an app for kids with cancer to track their pain and collect data and information on the pattern of that pain looked like, and ultimately created intervention recommendations. We took that idea which was very sort of basic, a pain diary, and built a game out of it and a real story. We had actors volunteer to shoot little videos as the kids were in enrolled in the pain squad, and collected clues on the way to solving pain.

Mike Orr: They would get promoted and see a video of somebody, one of the sergeants congratulating them as they moved up the line. They went from a 60% compliance rate up to over 95%, because the kids were really engaged in it. I think even even though it's a very challenging kind of environment to work in, it's tremendously rewarding. I think there are a lot of opportunities for that, applying a slightly different approach and thinking to, especially in health care, some of those problems, which would be really fun to spend some time and see what kind of change we can make.

Alanna Jackson: Yeah, because like you were saying-

Stacy Jackson: That would be cool.

Alanna Jackson: I love that you made it more into interactive for the kids and more of a game than thinking about the pain that they were going through. I think you hit it right on the head with, that's how we need to look at a lot of things. Make it focus on something else so that we're not thinking about that bad part of it.

Mike Orr: That's right. That's right, and give a purpose. There's a woman researcher named Jane McGonigal. She wrote a book called Reality is Broken, and her thing was that games are going to change the world because they were these epic stories, where everyone was part of something bigger than themselves, and they were contributing even when they were, just trying to complete a task, or a process, or something like that.

Mike Orr: In this case, even though they were recording their own experience, collecting those experiences could change the outcome for a whole bunch of kids. That was the intrinsic motivation to complete it, and then you could tie it in to a story idea that made it more fun. It did distract them. When they weren't feeling really good, it was a bit of fun in the day.

Alanna Jackson: Yeah. That's just so cool.

Stacy Jackson: Yeah. Well, Mike, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your insights with our listeners. If there's any listener that would like to connect with you online, what's the best way for them to reach out?

Mike Orr: I'm on social media, mainly LinkedIn. You can reach out directly there. I'm also on Twitter at @MikeOrr8, but LinkedIn you'll find meat Mike Orr, Grapevine6.

Stacy Jackson: We'll include that in the show notes.

Mike Orr: Great.

Alanna Jackson: If you want to get in touch with me or Stacy, you can hit us up on social. On Twitter, you can find Stacy at @Stacy_Jax, that's S-T-A-C-Y, underscore, J-A-X. You can find me on Twitter at @Alanna_Jax. That's A-L-A-N-N-A, underscore, J-A-X. If you're not a Twitter fan, you can always look us up on LinkedIn at Stacey Jackson or Alanna Jackson. Don't forget, you can leave us a voicemail on the Anchor mobile app, or on our show page on Anchor. Have a great week, guys.

Speaker 1: The B2B Mix Show is hosted by Stacey Jackson and Alanna Jackson of, you guessed it, Jackson Marketing. If you need help with your B2B inbound marketing efforts, visit us at

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