Welcome to The B2B Mix Show. We’re focused on digital marketing and sales topics to help you elevate your B2B brand. Check back on Mondays for new episodes.

Interested in infographic marketing but you’re just not a graphic designer? No problem when you use a platform like Visme! This week on the show, we chat with Payman Taei, founder of Visme, about infographic marketing tips and tricks. Payman also shares how a solution like Visme can help non-designers take their visual content game to the next level.

Want to connect with Payman online? Connect with him on LinkedIn. Also, be sure to check out these terrific resources from Visme.

By the way, be sure to check out Visme and its social channels on February 24th, to learn more about the launch of Visme Unleashed! Stacy had the chance to use the Visme Unleashed platform before it launched, and she says it’s awesome.

A note to listeners: while Stacy did get early access to Visme Unleashed, Visme did not ask for any promotion on this podcast in return. We just think it’s a cool solution that our listeners should know about.


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Alanna Jackson: Payman Taei is the founder of Visme, bootstrapped on a 10,000 budget and one of the leading all in one graphics and visual communication tools used by over 4 million users from over 120 countries. Payman has a unique story on how his first agency came about and why he started Visme. As a no BS type of guy, his journey has been a lot of trial and error. And has brought deep knowledge and real life experience to back it up on how any business with limited budgets can gain traction and successfully compete in their marketplace.

Alanna Jackson: Made for non-designers, but still powerful for graphic designers, Visme combines simplicity, flexibility, and interactive features within a single platform, giving users everything they need within an easy to use online interface. Supporting individual users and teams at organizations such as IBM, Uber Freight, Ultimate Software, Duke Energy, Fujifilm, and more. Payman, welcome to the B2B Mix Show.

Payman Taei: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Stacy Jackson: We do appreciate you being here. Before we get to discussing infographic marketing and some best practices there, let's talk a little bit about Visme. We know that Visme is a platform that helps non-designers tackle visual content creation. And you can do some really cool things with it. I've logged in and played around. But I do know that people like me, marketers, can be our own worst enemy. What do you have to share with those of us who are trying to get better at visual content using Visme, as far as best practices when using a platform like that?

Payman Taei: Sure, absolutely. So, I think in general, one of the first videos I did in our YouTube channel, because we're pretty big on educating people. And not necessarily just how to use our tool, but also how to become better visual communicators and designers without being a designer. And that is that the majority of people that are not designers, they often make things too complicated. So, as in the rest of things, less is more actually is a good idea and works great.

Payman Taei: So, explaining it in terms of let's say a presentation slide, when you look at most people that create PowerPoint slides or presentation slides in general, it is just too packed with content. It's filled. And nobody, there's no rule that says you can only have five slides in most cases. I mean a five slide presentation could be 10 or 15 or 20.

Payman Taei: So, you want to keep it engaged and just focusing on the key information and some of the other principles that you want to follow as best practices. Such as the right use of fonts and focusing on the key points, contrast, not having white text over a very light grey background. They're just very simple things that in a matter of, just knowing these common mistakes, you will be able to create better content. So, that's one of the things I think that's very important for people to know.

Alanna Jackson: Yeah. I know that when I first started using tools that were for dummies like me that aren't designers, I overdid it. I'm like, "Oh, look at all this stuff I can put on here." And it was hard to get out of that mindset of just make it simple. You don't have to go crazy.

Payman Taei: Absolutely. And then in case of Visme, there is a balance, and we've worked very hard on this. It's taken us years to achieve that. Is to create a balance where the non-designer can go in and they have a great starting point. So, we worked very hard on these beautiful templates that are already created, professionally done by our team right here in-house, one by one created and available to our users. So, you have a great starting point.

Payman Taei: So, you don't have to think about designing. All you do is just find, let's say I'm trying to create a process or I'm trying to do a timeline. You just find a template that has the structure that you need, and then what you do is just edit your texts and information. You don't have to really do anything else. So, we give people the starting point for that. And that works great for a lot of people.

Payman Taei: And eventually, and this is what a lot of other tools do as well. For example, a tool such as Canva and even in PowerPoint, you can buy templates out there. But what often happens is once you graduate past that it's natural for humans to want to become better designers, better presenters, better educators and everything else. You always want to get better.

Payman Taei: And so, at some point you hit this limit where you want to do a little bit more. You want to go a bit step further where your presentation or your graphic looks a little better than someone else's, or it is a bit more engaging and grabs more attention. And so, usually what happens, most people hit the ceiling with some of the other tools out there that are dumbed down to serve the initial purpose.

Payman Taei: And so, in the case of Visme, what we've tried to do and work so hard is to find a balance. Find a balance where you have restrictions in place, but yet you have more flexibility, and you have the ability to be able to go beyond just the average static graphic. So, if you want to make things animated, if you want to create popups or hover overs, we give you those abilities, but they're not in your face. They're not right there where we force you to have to use those. It's just there, subtly, when you need it and experiment with them and start putting them together.

Payman Taei: So, that's our mission is to be this visual communication tool, that structure and yet freedom to be able to do more. And the same time we draw the line. We draw a line where we don't want to pack it with too many features that's really meant for the very professional designer who would be better off using a tool such as Adobe and so on, if they want to create something very complex. So, it's been a huge challenge for us to find that boundary that fits most people's needs.

Alanna Jackson: So, you mentioned Canva, and so one of the things that comes to mind is canvas for those really starting off, I just need to create some stuff to have all my social or just anything like that. And I'm not a designer, I want to get out there. And Visme is the next step, right? So, how would you compare or stack up Visme against Canva, aside from the things that you've just went through some of those. But are there other things that really stand out that we should.

Payman Taei: That's right. That's a great question. So in general, I mean, by the way, a wonderful tool. I think Canva has done a fantastic job of helping the non-designers and very novice users to get that entry point. And what we really love about the fact of that tool is that eventually people want to go, graduate beyond that and go a little bit further. And that's where Visme comes in.

Payman Taei: So, there's actually a lot of users, when we did surveys and so on, that are Canva users and they're also our Visme users, or they may have graduated from that to us. So what are differentiators is that in our tool you can pretty much do everything that you can do in Canva. But at the same time now you can also apply motion to any objects. So, if I want to move an object from left to right, I can just click it until, hey move from left to right. If I want to embed a video from YouTube and Vimeo and so on, I can do that.

Payman Taei: In a new version coming, which we can talk about briefly, we've taken things to a whole new level. We spent over a year and a half creating a series of assets that are basically already pre-animated for the user. So, instead of you putting an icon and having to put another icon and time it and tell it, hey, come to this point and come from the top and come to the bottom, to create this group object, we've created these group illustrations that are just ready to go in different distinct styles that are beautiful. Flat, isometric, outline you know for those that are familiar with these terms.

Alanna Jackson: Nice.

Payman Taei: Just basically... Yeah, so you just drag and drop them. So, maybe you're doing a slide, a cover page, and you're talking about the process of educating the students for X, Y, and Z. And so, we have complimentary, some of them are abstracts. So, you just drag and drop that object, put an X through the text and then that's it, you're done. So, when you load that up, it already loads and it's already got the motion to it. It's just subtle, very short, very quick and it's ready to go.

Payman Taei: So, interactivity, we take it to the next level if you want to talk about that. And of course, you can download as a GIF, as a video, embed it to your website and so on. So, that's the other scenario.

Payman Taei: Now, for the serious professionals that are very much into data, then on that side of the spectrum for let's say professional use. Because somebody might say, "Well, that's great but I'm in a corporation. I need to create charts and flow charts and so on." In Visme we've created a complete engine for the ability to be able to create diagrams and flow charts. So, you can literally attach lines to each other and create your entire flow chart together within Visme. Much simpler than let's say you would be able to do it in something like Canva. Because in Canva we have to drag and drop items and they don't attach to each other. So, you have to do one by one, move them around. In Visme, no, they're sticky, they're magnetic when you use the flowchart tool.

Payman Taei: Then on the chart side we actually provide full, pretty powerful charting mechanism so that you can actually, not just have a little simple chart that's got a pie with three pieces on it, you can actually create pretty detailed structures of charts. And we give you over 20 something, there's over 30 of them. Then we have all these data widgets that are just drag and drops or radio widgets, arrays.

Payman Taei: So, let's say I wanted to create a population of male versus female and put percentages. Or football players with such and such, you can actually apply percentages. Say this percentage of the population is this and that percentage is that. In a tool such as Canva or PowerPoint, let's say you want to do a similar thing and say, "hey there's 20 males and there's 10 females in my organization," or vice versa. You would have to drag and drop 20 or copy and paste 20 male objects and 10 female objects. In Visme you don't do that. One array 20 and 10, you give it a value, what icons and boom, it creates it for you.

Alanna Jackson: That is nice. It saves you time.

Payman Taei: That's right.

Alanna Jackson: And your graphs you can have an Excel kind of spreadsheet thing where you can put your-

Payman Taei: Correct.

Alanna Jackson: and it'll do your graph for you, right?

Payman Taei: Absolutely. So, you put your data, there's a table. So you actually put your data in a table and it will automatically visualize it into a chart. And then if you want to switch charts, you don't have to put your data in again, you just switch the chart type. So, it's smart enough to actually recognize that. Then you can even connect your data to let's say, Google Sheets. So, you can actually have live data on Google Sheet feeding, coming from other third party source. And then you don't even have to open Visme again to edit your chart data.

Payman Taei: So, let's say you create this presentation and there're certain values that are going to be changing often. So, let's say you do a monthly report for marketing and you want the chart to just automatically pull the data without you having to open it. So, I can actually publish a Visme, get a URL, I can make it password protected, by the way. I could make it private so Google cannot index it. So, I can share that with you. And so, it's private use. And then you can go to it, and let's say tomorrow you go into it and if any information in that Google Sheet has changed, the next time you load that presentation infographic and so on, it is going to pull the latest data. So, those are things it can do as well.

Alanna Jackson: That's awesome. That's awesome because I know I've tried to do a graph or bar chart or something like that and came up before and it's a pain. It's not easy because you can't just fill those numbers in. So, when I saw that I was like, "Oh, that is cool."

Payman Taei: Yeah, that's one of the areas we shine at. And how that came about is because we actually started mostly a presentation and infographic tool. See in Canva's case, they started as a graphic design, basically for social graphics. That was the primary thing that they started at. So they focus and they've done a wonderful job from a social aspect side for very simple graphics. Then they delve into presentations, then into infographics. And they have, of course, those capabilities too, as far as you have slides, you have pages and so on. But it's very restrictive and it has to be that way for that tool.

Alanna Jackson: Right.

Payman Taei: The thing is that if they really wanted to do something that is like Visme, they'd have to step outside of that comfort zone that they built for the rest of their users or pretty much build a completely separate product. So, that's where we focus on. We started as an infographic presentation tool, so that's where we shine in terms of heavy features, heavy, easy to use features that we give you. And then we started going into documents and pintables and flyers and social graphics and ball graphics.

Payman Taei: So, we actually almost started at both ends of the spectrum. And although both of us are all-in-one visual communication tools, our focus is to give you a little bit more, that edge that differentiates your content, the end result over, let's say everybody else that's using that tool or others.

Stacy Jackson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And I think you mentioned a few moments ago that a new product release is happening, Visme Unleashed. And I think the day this episode goes live is the day that product will be released, on the 24th?

Payman Taei: Yes, yes, that is correct. So, we are going to be, we're working on the new version of Visme for over 18 months or so. Not just on developing a new version, but all the assets that I talked about. The new version is going to be... I mean I'm very excited about it because it is the foundation, a stepping stone in what we have planned for the next few years. And I think early access users have been very supportive and very welcoming of the things that we built.

Payman Taei: Long story short, so the new version, we're calling it Visme Unleashed. I mean look, this is the fourth iteration, the fourth core version of Visme. The one we have right now is the third one. It's kind of too boring, I think with this major update to just call it Visme 4. I mean come on. So at Visme, I think we like to do things a little bit differently. Normal is boring, which is why our tool, especially the new version, you're going to see things that nobody else is doing.

Payman Taei: What we've looked at is looking at all other tools out there, from your Canva, to your PowerPoint to your Piktochart, to PowToon for videos and Vital. All these are our competitors in one way or another that are visual communication tools. One of them is focused on video production, video presentations. One of them is focused on mostly social graphics. One is on just infographics. We looked at all of those and we say, what is the common denominator where people can just have one tool, one interface? And they can create any of those within one tool for a fraction of the price and having three or four or five of them. And having a learning curve of using four or five different tools.

Payman Taei: So, that's what our mission of Visme is, is to give you one tool that you ever need to create anything that has to do with graphics. That has to do with motion, that has to do with data visualization, that has to do with presentations. So, build anything except very long boring documents. So by any means, if you ever want to create a long legal document, terms and conditions, that's 50, 60 pages, 100 pages-

Alanna Jackson: Go somewhere else.

Payman Taei: Those things are not for Visme. Yeah, yeah, use Word document. But everything else is game in Visme.

Alanna Jackson: So, we know that content is huge and it's everywhere. We're bombarded with it every day. There's so much content saturation. I don't think that should be a surprise to anybody.

Payman Taei: Sure.

Alanna Jackson: But we all have short attention spans. So, it makes it difficult to capture someone's attention and draw them in and make them want to come and find out more. And how can an infographic marketing process strategy help marketers to improve their results and grab that attention and draw their audience in?

Payman Taei: Sure. So, I will be lying to sit here and say is that, hey, just create great graphics and make it move around and so on and then you're going to have better engagement. I mean, any marketer knows that. I mean it is going to start with a... The content is king in terms of Google. Content is king in marketing.

Payman Taei: It's just, tools such as us or in terms of graphical manner is the medium through which you translate that and you actually put it in front of an audience. I think that has to do with great storytelling. If you're able to tell a good story. Now, a good story doesn't have to be a story that you have to listen to for 5 or 10 minutes. It could literally be a quote. It could literally be a phrase, right?

Payman Taei: And you are able to support that with some sort of a visual and a graphic, an icon, an image. So, and you're able to do that because then you are able to convey to people. You're able to tell that story in a meaningful manner and in a snackable manner because less content is more these days. Say the minimum with the most amount of impact. Then the audience, especially when you're talking about visual cues, they're able to absorb and remember that a lot more.

Payman Taei: I mean, study after study has proven, people can debate the percentages as far as, this percentage of people are communicators. This percentage, faster absorption of information. But everybody can agree with the fact that we remember much better when we look at something that's visual. You've seen an image, you're going to remember it a lot faster than let's say you read a paragraph of text. So, that is an advantage. And I think combining the two together is very important.

Payman Taei: So, being able to use great story content, texts, with and presenting then in a visual manner is great. And the same thing was for data, right? So a story could be data. You could be telling and showing and presenting certain sets of data and stats and widgets. It could be quarterly data. It could be marketing stats. And being able to present it in a manner that is easy to consume and remember, then you, I think, are able to get better engagement.

Alanna Jackson: You made a point about that a story doesn't have to be long. It could be a quote. I think a lot of people get caught up in, when you're going through school and you have to write stories. You have to have the intro, the body, the conflict, the resolution. You have to have all these pieces to tell a story. Do you think that that hinders people from being able to tell a good story in an infographic because they want to put too much stuff in it sometimes?

Payman Taei: I think so. I mean, I would recommend, so if somebody was to ask me a question and say, "Hey, what is the..." Of course, we have a lot of articles on our blog. We have videos created on our YouTube channel about how to create an effective infographic or ads and so on, regardless of what tool you use. But in a nutshell, I believe that it's no different than let's say, somebody who wants to sit down and write a book or write a report. Now you're going to have an intro, an outline, and the conclusion and so you have that structure, that outline that you create.

Payman Taei: Same thing with an infographic. You're going to just need to jot down in the side what is it I'm trying to cover from the bird's eye view, right? Then the next question instead of it being, is okay, let me just go in and just add everything that I want, which is what most people do. They have an outline and they start with bullet one and they just fill in and write a lot more information they may need to. What I suggest is you have your outline and then you ask yourself, what is the minimal number of words and the minimal information that I could fill in between each of these. Just focusing on the key terms.

Payman Taei: And so I think it almost would be, because we're talking about marketing here, like search engine optimization, right? For those that are familiar with it. So, let's say that you have a homepage, a website, and you want to optimize your homepage for better search results. Not getting into the technicality of things, but Google cares a lot about a few things. Cares about the URL structure.

Payman Taei: So, www.visme.com/make-infographics. So make infographics is a key word. The title, which is what you've seen search results, that bolded line, that link, needs to be no more than 40 or 50 characters, if I recall correctly, right? So, what Google is telling you and what people want to focus on is think of it as Google does. The minimum amount of information between each bullet. So you're focusing, in social optimization, on trying to say something that makes sense and yet including as many of the important keywords that Google will care about.

Payman Taei: So, think of the same way for humans. Talking about infographics, those bullet points. Just focus on the key points, the key data, the key stats and nothing more. And when you do that, you have yourself an outline that's only a fraction of a page or maybe a page, depending on what it is. And now you go into an infographic tool such as ours, you focus only that information and now you're using data. So, if you have statistics like 37%, you want to make that 37% larger. Maybe that has to do with having one of our radio widgets, or making the 37% much bolder and putting an icon next to it or something that makes sense. So, you're focusing on that.

Payman Taei: So, as a user, when people are looking at, viewers looking at infographics and so on, it's just visual cues. They're just scrolling down, and infographics can be as tall as you want them to be and you're just focusing on the information. And you see these little visual keys and you absorb that. So, that's the way I would say to go about it versus actually writing a very long detailed information.

Alanna Jackson: Yeah, I agree. Because I've seen somewhere they have multiple paragraphs all throughout and I don't want to read all of this. It's a visual for me.

Payman Taei: That's not an infographic, right? I mean that's the thing. That's no longer an infographic.

Alanna Jackson: Right.

Alanna Jackson: Right.

Stacy Jackson: So infographics, I was thinking the other day as we were preparing for this conversation, they have been around actually a long time. I remember one of the first I saw was about the dream layers in the movie Inception. And that was 10 years ago. So, people have had a long time to play with this and in that time marketers have had a long opportunity to kind of mess it up and take that, meet the mindset and do really boring things. Do you have any advice on how to step back and say, is this infographic worthy? Am I spending time on the right idea?

Payman Taei: Sure. And I will be the first to say that tools like ours, and even some of the others, are guilty in making it available so easily to everybody who can create an infographic. And so, they will even take one of the templates that we have and then just go in and just... You can make a tolerance on, just add more and more and more texts into it, right?

Payman Taei: So, a tool such as ours and all our competitors, could in some ways be guilty in terms of people that just don't care. They don't want to listen. They just want to do their own thing. Or maybe they're just not yet familiar with the principles of infographics. And so, the market got so flooded, market as in information out there, where now it's come to a point where when you say infographics it almost can have a negative annotation for some people, because they're used to seeing all the other ones out there.

Payman Taei: So that, I think, is a challenge to overcome. And how do you solve that is, yes, we can give people a great starting point, but it's also through educating them. So, at Visme one of the things that we do, in fact we spend probably too much, I would say, on providing free information to all of our users and so on.

Payman Taei: The amount of time that goes into creating these videos that we do that are very fun to watch and so on, they're short. But the amount of time that goes into those from a business aspect, and we can actually get to that from a bootstrap standpoint as well, and the same from a business standpoint, they almost don't financially make sense. It's like why are you guys spending so much time, so much effort creating these videos and so on when you can just bump up your Google ads? You could hire another marketing person and so on to focus specifically on conversions.

Payman Taei: Now, I look at the long term. I look at the dividends that these things are going to pay, where we're building a brand that not only has a great tool out there for people to use, for everyone to use. But at the same time it provides meaningful educational information that they can, that builds trust and confidence. That they can do it and that it is provided by Visme. So that's the way that we're doing it.

Alanna Jackson: You guys have an eBook out. I think it's called The Marketing Strategies We Used to Bootstrap Visme to 4 Million Users. And in you highlight a lot of the different strategies that worked well for you. And can you walk us through some of those strategies and tactics that you've put into place when it comes to marketing infographics?

Payman Taei: Sure. So, unfortunately to say for people that are listening in, that are just looking for very quick tips to just make a business successful quickly and grow it and so on, and that this eBook is fantastic. Because it goes over a hundred something pages, which is not meant to be read in one round. It's like whenever you want to refer to it, provides real information and real data supported by all the results that we got or we didn't get. And in a nutshell, there was no quick, easy trick that did it for us. It was a combination of a bunch of things.

Payman Taei: So, in terms of some of the things that we did is there's no secrets. It's all things that you can find out there, but we just really laid it out based on how it worked for us or didn't, and how it could work for you. And then some of them, content marketing, we all know from a marketing aspect. Most people, and I was never a believer in content marketing, to be honest with you. I was like, "Why do I want to hire a content writer and an editor and we spend all this time in our blog? And then we got 10,000 people that came to this blog post and only maybe one person maybe sign up for an account." And these are the old days. And over time it's kind of evergreen content. You write great content and they will come. You build it, they will come. Eventually, very slowly, but it will flow.

Payman Taei: So, we focused, initially we were just writing a lot of content on our blog. And then we changed strategy in terms of writing less blog posts but writing very high quality. They're fully impact with tons of visuals and so on. Things that people appreciate. And they could read it two years from now and it will still be, most of it, would be held true.

Payman Taei: And on the infographic side, we went into writing articles on our blog about various topics, design, presenting, infographics. Because it's all about visual communication and marketing. And using infographics to do a very quick, short snippet of an entire article. Because a 3000 word article, maybe that's not your cup of tea, maybe you just want to skim through it. Or even if you read it towards the end, we have an infographic that actually lays down, and a great example, taking 3000 words and make it into maybe 150, 200 word infographic with visuals and so on. So, now it's almost a review process. It's like seeing the CliffNotes version of it, and now you're able to absorb that.

Payman Taei: So, we did those and those infographics got picked up by different blogs and outlets eventually and they're being shared to this day. Some of them get shared. And look, on the other side of coin, just because you build it doesn't always mean they come, because you also have to do some outreach. You've got to get out there and you've got to put it in front of an audience and say, "Hey listen, you are in the wine making industry and so on and you're talking about all these different things. Here's an infographic we did that has to do with certain criteria about wines and so on." And so we put that in front of them. And they're like, "This is great, this is fantastic. I'm going to put it on our blog."

Payman Taei: So, they put it on their blog, and of course they give you credit for it and you get a link, you get a mention and eventually some traffic. You do this over and over again, year after year, those things add up to some. Some of them are hit and miss. There's no guarantee that you just get covered and it's going to be great. But together as a cohort, it ends up being worthwhile, the trouble of doing it.

Alanna Jackson: And some people expect it to be overnight results, and it's a long term process. It's not a one time thing when you're trying to that evergreen. It's going to be ongoing and it's going to take time. Yeah.

Payman Taei: Sure. I think from a business aspect, this was a business discussion as far as building a company and a business, I mean this is a long term thing. It's been six years in the making and we have a lot ahead of us, and it wasn't built in a day, right? So, I think those that are looking for very quick, fast results, usually things that take off very fast, often, again statistically, they also crash very fast.

Alanna Jackson: Yeah. Exactly.

Payman Taei: They come down very fast. So yeah, but when you build something slowly and you improve it, you have a market or, whatever that process is, you build it with a great foundation that organically starts to grow. Then that, I think, in general, statistically speaking, there's always a chance for failure, but statistically ends up having a better foundation, a little bit harder to break down. That's the philosophy that I like to follow. And then, now me being 42, 43... I don't know what my age is, I almost forgot. Today's my wife's birthday.

Alanna Jackson: Oh, Happy Birthday.

Payman Taei: Thanks. Of course, it wouldn't be the 24th, today being the day we're recording.

Alanna Jackson: True.

Payman Taei: But it is her birthday. Yeah, But in general though, I think going back to 15, 20 years ago, in my mid-twenties and so on, I was the same way. So you, through trial and error, you learn that sometimes it just takes time. And that's what content marketing is. Content marketing is not something that you hire someone and you do it.

Payman Taei: You've got to have a strategy, you've got to figure out what works for you. You can't just keep doing something that doesn't work. But once you start seeing something work, you see a little bit of evidence, then you just keep doing more of it over and over and over again. And you're also open to pivoting and experimenting with things. So, it's a long term prospect.

Alanna Jackson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So you've shared a lot of... Oh, did you have a question, Stace?

Stacy Jackson: Yeah, I was just curious with the different strategies mentioned in the eBook. I know you talked about guest posting and guest infographics. Did you find that people were more interested if you offered an infographic than a blog post? I was just curious.

Payman Taei: They love it if you offer both. Content and that, of course. Yeah, I think that both can have a... It has to do with the topic and information, but the infographics, depending on how well it's designed. I mean, so I think it works great if you go to someone who is already about to write their next topic or has recently written it. And say, "Hey, we created it for you. Here you go. Would you like to add it?" If it's nicely designed, they'll pick it up. A lot of times, because...

Payman Taei: See we have, one of the advantages because we have designers in-house. All they do is create infographic templates. The average person wouldn't just be able to get out there and create a very high end infographic that you would... I'm not saying you can't, you could use templates that someone would give you and do that, so you can. But it has to have a certain feel to it and speak their language, the blogger, to want to include that. You can't just say, I'm just going to start doing, get some graphics tomorrow and then just put a bunch of them together and spread that. You're going to be very disappointed.

Payman Taei: And I will say this, it is hard work. It's not easy. I mean it takes a lot of work to create and you've got to outreach, and you've got to have to put a process and strategy in place. So, if you are a very small business that's never done this, I probably wouldn't say just go ahead and start right away with just creating a lot of these and put it out. You've got to start slow, find the battle and then start putting those elements out there.

Payman Taei: And by the way, another work around to it is that that infographic doesn't have to be very big. It could be where you're just showing a very small portion of that article and you're visualizing that. And that could be the one that they may want to include in. Maybe you did two or three of them. And they want to include that to support that content. So, when we say guest-o-graphics, it doesn't have to be very, very tall infographics. It could just be a visual format of certain snippets and so on that would help.

Alanna Jackson: That's a good idea. Probably a lot of people don't even think about doing that, but that's a good idea.

Payman Taei: Yeah, it's just one day we're like, "Hey, why don't we not spend as much time and just create something short?

Alanna Jackson: Right.

Payman Taei: Light bulb. It's obvious, but it wasn't initially.

Alanna Jackson: So, we have one final question and it's just a fun question. So, if you weren't doing what you're doing now...

Payman Taei: I'm going to charge for this one.

Alanna Jackson: So, if you weren't doing what you're doing now at Visme, what would your dream job be? This is perfect since it's your birthday to rethink your life.

Payman Taei: Yeah. My wife's birthday, yeah, not mine. My birthday's coming, yeah. So, that's a good... I have to be upfront and say, I really love doing this. I mean it's pretty much like a dream job. And what I was doing initially before this, I was just creating websites and graphics for other people. It was a great job. I loved it and so on. And eventually it got stale and dry and that. I was like, "You know what, I want to empower people to be able to do this on their own, versus having to come to me or some other agency to do it."

Payman Taei: And by the way, this tool was never created to overcome graphic designers and so on. A lot of graphic designers, especially at companies love us because it's taking the load work off of their back. Because we have these team plans so that they can go in and set up brand guidelines and so on. So, their team can focus on just doing these little simple edits and changes and updates. And then the designer can focus on creating more templates or focusing on other projects that really requires them. So, it's actually a win-win situation.

Payman Taei: But if it was something that I would, I don't know particularly exactly what it would be. But what I know that it would evolve would be, in some way or another, helping people. Empowering people. And maybe it's a tool, maybe it's a non-profit, may it was something else. But I think that's one of the things that Visme is also. That we are involved in some degree or another to helping, donating and assisting some people behind the scenes on their cause and so on. So, we're going to be getting more and more involved in that over the years as our revenue grows and we grow further.

Stacy Jackson: That's awesome. Yeah, I like that. Well, Payman, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your insights. If our audience wants to get in touch with you or follow you online, what's the best way for them to do that?

Payman Taei: I think the best thing would be through LinkedIn. So, you just search for me. I don't think there's anybody... Well, my name, you're just going to get one search result. Payman, P-A-Y... And it's written Payman. So you're going to be paying me. So, P-A-Y-M-A-N. Last name is Taei, T-A-E-I. And then just connect with me and so that would be the best way to get through to me.

Alanna Jackson: All right, and we'll include that in our show notes and if you want to follow me or Stacy, you can get in touch with us on Twitter at Stacey_Jax, that's S-T-A-C-Y underscore J-A-X. Or you can find me at Alanna_Jax. That's A-L-A-N-N-A underscore J-A-X. And if you're not a Twitter fan, you can always look us up on LinkedIn. And don't forget, you can leave us a voicemail on the Anchor mobile app or on anchor.fm show page. See you next week.

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