We’ve come a long way when it comes to empowering women in the workplace, but there’s still room for improvement. Our guest for this episode has some insight to share with women and men on this topic.
We’re joined by a major supporter of #WomenInSales Carole Mahoney. Carole is the founder and Chief Sales Coach of Unbound Growth. She’s shared videos and articles to help women overcome various situations that arise in the workplace.
In this episode, we talk with Carole about:
- Different biases women face in the workplace
- Tips for women on how to address the different biases they face
- Tips for men to be aware of and address biases towards women
- and more
Want to get in touch with Carole?
Facebook – @theunboundgrowth
Stacy Jackson: Hey everyone, I'm Stacy Jackson.
Alanna Jackson: And I'm Alanna Jackson, we are the co-founders of Jackson Marketing. And in case you still haven't heard, we are also sisters. Stacy, what's the topic of today's episode?
Stacy Jackson: Today we are talking about empowering women in the workplace. And this is an issue that everybody who is a woman, I guess, faces from time to time. There are obstacles out there whether they're something we perceive is going to happen or actual roadblock that gets thrown up in our way intentionally or not, and we get frustrated as women because we don't know how to proceed. And maybe there's even situations where we want to brag about something we're doing or take charge in a situation, but those ways we were raised about don't be bossy, don't brag, a lot of little girls hear those messages and it plays out in adulthood when you are assuming a leadership role and you're just not sure then how to be that leader because you don't want to be bossy.
Alanna Jackson: Yeah, and I think that's one of the key things that a lot of people deal with, is a lot of people have this misconception that women aren't talking about their selves, bragging on themselves because they aren't confident. And I don't think that's it at all. And I'm excited about this topic because we're going to dig into some things with our guest who is a, I'm a big fan of hers and she has some videos out there that share some information for women on how to empower yourselves. And so, she's going to give us some great ideas on things that you can do when you're in different situations as a woman. So, I'm very excited about this episode and I think it's going to be really good.
Stacy Jackson: Yeah, and this episode is for women across the board, whether you're in marketing, sales or some other leadership position in business or even in your personal life, it's really important to think about how you're going to take a stand and shine. And Alanna, why don't you introduce the lady who's going to tell us all about it today?
Alanna Jackson: I absolutely will because I am a huge fan of hers. Carole Mahoney is the founder and chief sales coach at Unbound Growth, a scientific sales development firm that eliminates the guesswork of how to develop and hire stellar sales teams using a proven data and science-based process. It is her personal mission to change the negative perception of sales from the individual sales person to the executive and leaders. She has a degree in marketing and that's where she started before switching over to the dark side. So, believe it or not, she used to hate sales. However, she overcame her hatred of sales and is now a well-known thought leader in the sales industry and a big promoter for women in sales. And she has recently been named one of the top 15 sales influencers to follow. So, if you haven't started following her yet, you better. So Carole, welcome to the B2B Mix Show.
Carole Mahoney: Thank you so much for having me. I am delighted to be here.
Stacy Jackson: And we're glad to have you. And what this show episode came about from was you and Alanna recently participated in a conversation on LinkedIn about why don't women self-promote as much as men do, and there was great conversation from the different people participating. I think the issue of likeability bias came up as part of the problem that women are told not to be bossy when they're little girls, so that had some grow up in a certain way of being afraid to express themselves. How can women embrace the title of bossiness? I know that you mentioned your friends and family call you bossy sometimes and you own it. How can women see that as a positive and use that to great effect in their careers?
Carole Mahoney: Yeah, and honestly, I didn't always own it. I think I felt the same way a lot of women do when they're being called bossy. Like this is a bad thing that they're... I for one always thought it made me a bad person. Like if you call me bossy, then there's a negative connotation to that and nobody wants that. And I started to get in a point in my life, maybe it's just because I turned 40 and at that point you just don't care anymore what anyone thinks, and I think that's a big part of it. Is that you get to a point where you realize that it's not about what people think about you that matters. I forget who said the quote, but what other people think of you is really none of your business.
Alanna Jackson: Now, that's a kind one.
Carole Mahoney: And so, I started to think of it as if I think of it that way and you call me bossy, I started to come up with a way to replace the belief that being bossy is bad. And I started by just saying, "Okay, so what? So what if I am bossy? Everybody has a superpower and mine is that I like to lead people and I have ideas that I am not afraid to share." And when I started taking on that so what mentality, it started to change what my perception of being bossy really was. And instead of trying to resist it, I actually embraced it and thought, "Okay, well, how can I make my bossiness a positive? How can I use it to help others?"
Carole Mahoney: And also at the same time, it made me realize that being bossy can sometimes be in how we present ourselves and how we communicate, and so, I started learning how to instead of telling people what to do, I started asking them more questions to lead them and help guide them and ultimately help them to start thinking differently about something where instead of me trying to push them in a certain direction, it was more of me asking questions to see if I lay out these breadcrumbs, will they follow? And a lot of times that worked better.
Alanna Jackson: One thing that when we were growing up, it was your parents would tell you don't be so bossy or you had friends that were bossy and you didn't always want to hang out with them because they were bossy at times, and I think sometimes those carry through as we become adults. And unfortunately, even as women, we sometimes cause this negative connotation of women that are being assertive and we're like, "Oh, she's so bossy." How do we get past that as women not looking at other women that way and trying to build other women up?
Carole Mahoney: I think that we have to, whenever you're trying to overcome any kind of a bias, first there comes that stage of awareness of, "All right, I think that she's bossy." Why do I feel like she's bossy? What is it about that that is either a turn off for me or do I wish I could be more like that? And so start recognizing that awareness and when it's happening and then try to look at it logically and examining what that brings up for you as the person. And then you might be able to start actually developing some empathy for that person who is bossy and getting to know them and understand why they're that way. And if you're the person being called bossy, again, looking at, okay, how can I be more inclusive and more collaborative with people while still being my bossy self?
Alanna Jackson: That was an interesting point that you made about how being bossy is maybe it's an issue that you have with yourself that maybe you want to be more like that person, and because especially today when you want to be heard and on social and in business, you got to be on social depending on what your job is and being heard and that you maybe you're not promoting yourself like you should and maybe you're putting that negative connotation towards those other people because that's what you want to be. I didn't even think about that until you just mentioned that. So, that was a really interesting point.
Carole Mahoney: Yeah, I think we have a responsibility to look at what are our biases? Where are they coming from? And maybe I was definitely called a bossy kid. It was just the way I was. And I've been told that before. And again, it's a good to examine where it comes from for you. And also, I think being that collaborative kind of a person too.
Alanna Jackson: And another thing that Lori Richardson had shared a link to 50 Ways to Fight Bias. It has some activities that you can go through and it had some of the different biases that people face in the workplace, and one of the stats that they mentioned when it came to performance bias was that when you replace a woman's name with a man's name on a resume, it improved the odds of getting hired by more than 60%. Now, I always knew that that was probably a case that was happening, but 60%, I didn't think it was that high and that was shocking to me today. And when it comes to those performance biases, why do you think most people tend to underestimate women's performance and overestimate the men's?
Carole Mahoney: So, I don't know exactly what the reason is. I think there's a lot of variables in place, but I will share with you what I have experienced or heard myself. In hiring processes, there's the, well, I don't know how to say this politically correctly, so I'm going to just try to say it nicely. Somebody must have helped her get there. Nothing that I hear. Or I also hear, "Well, if she wasn't a woman then she probably wouldn't have gotten that position." Because they're trying to be diverse and inclusion and everybody's all about hiring women now. And so, I think that sometimes just any minority or any gender, they tend to look at any achievements that are made as, well, they must've had help.
Alanna Jackson: Right. So, do you think that causes women to have to accomplish more just to get noticed?
Carole Mahoney: I think it does. I know that from my own experience it certainly does and I have a somewhat controversial maybe controversial attitude towards that, which I don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing because if you also look at the studies that show that women are more likely to only apply for a job when they have a higher percentage of the competencies there, I think that is our superpower is that we are able to do more and we can make the world a better place because of that. So, the fact that we have to accomplish more to get noticed makes us better.
Stacy Jackson: Regarding the study that you mentioned, Alanna, and if this is too charged of a question, we don't have to go over it, but what do you think the Me Too movement has also played a role in the hiring issue or was this study done before that? Do you know? I'm not sure if it was done before or after.
Carole Mahoney: I don't think that we can say it hasn't had an impact. It's had an impact in so many ways just even how men and women communicate now in the workplace. I think it's changed even other women's perception. I think of other women, I think it's definitely had an impact. What that exactly is, I will leave to the researchers to discover, but just in the conversations I hear that men have amongst each other, sometimes men sent tend to say things in front of me that they forget that I'm a woman sometimes. Maybe it's the tomboy me, I don't know, and I've heard them say, "Well, be careful how you look at so-and-so or be careful how you say that to so-and-so and you don't want to become another Me Tooer." And so they're very, I don't know if scared is the right word or nervous or unsure of how to act around women because they don't want to ever be in any way offensive or sexually harassed in some way. Just they don't know. So, I think it definitely has probably had an impact.
Alanna Jackson: And do you think it... I definitely think since the Me Too movement, more men are talking about it. One thing that I've noticed that's interesting, not with all men that talk about it, but with some where they want to be, I don't know what the word... The word has gone from me, but they want to help.
Stacy Jackson: Be a champ promote this.
Alanna Jackson: Yeah, a champion, yeah. But sometimes when they're being that champion on social for everyone to see versus what actually happens in meetings with those people is not always the same thing that's going on. Do you see that and do you think that that is an issue that people are jumping on the bandwagon just to get noticed but they're not actually working to make it change?
Carole Mahoney: I think you have to think and consider of there probably are those that will jump on the bandwagon because they want to be seen as it's like whenever someone is talking about racial issues, I'm not racist. I have a best friend who's this particular race. But then when they actually are thinking and making their decisions and behind closed doors, it can be different. I think one of the things that comes into play is what's on the line for them. Do they feel like if they stand up for a woman that that's going to somehow cast them in a different light or put their political mojo at risk for something and they're not willing necessarily to put their necks out. It might also be that they just don't know how to do that. They don't bother. They don't know when to, they don't know what's the right thing to do or to say.
Stacy Jackson: Right. And on that line of thought, when women are in meetings with men, maybe I've had this happen to me and I know Alanna has and you probably have too, you might make a suggestion that gets overlooked or denied and maybe it's because of the way I present it or it's just the way the room is laid out with the personalities there, but it gets overlooked. But a man might bring up that same suggestion a little bit later and it's like, "Woo, he discovered the cure to cancer or something." What should women do in these situations? How do you take back ownership of the idea? Is there a graceful or a tactful way to do that?
Carole Mahoney: Well, I will share with you how I did it the last time I had to. And I was working at a startup and they were using Salesforce and this was like Salesforce 2.0, so it was several, several years ago, and they just started coming out with the support and service side of Salesforce. And it was a tech company that I worked in. I was on the job for maybe two or three months and we were having our semi-weekly company meeting and they were trying to decide what system to use for support for the technology.
Carole Mahoney: And my job, the one of the reasons that they hired me was to investigate, understand everything about Salesforce so that I could figure out ways that it could help the company to grow. This was my number one task. And so I suggested, why don't we look at the support side of Salesforce? That way our sales team can be in the loop as far as what's happening in support so that they never reach out to someone who's not happy or they at least know what's going on with the account before they do reach out. And it was like that much dead silence and then the said, "Yeah, I don't think that's going to work." And I said, "Okay."
Carole Mahoney: And at the time I just let it go. And about maybe, I want to say four months later, another gentleman brought the idea up who was, I can't remember exactly what his role was, but he was someone relatively new to the company. He suggested, "Hey, why don't we look into using Salesforce for support?" And all of a sudden it became a great idea. My first reaction was, I was sitting there, and I could just feel my temperature rising, I could feel my heartbeat going up and I was-
Alanna Jackson: It's like on the cartoon where the steam starts coming out.
Carole Mahoney: Exactly, my face is turning red. There's steam coming out of my ears. I can physically feel it coming out of my ears and I had to get up and go into the restroom and just catch my breath because I did not want to react to it emotionally. And I went to the bathroom and I came back into the meeting and they were still discussing it and at the end of them discussing it, I took a beat and I don't know where the inspiration came from, but what I said was this. I'm going to just say it was Charlie.
Carole Mahoney: I said, "Charlie, I am so glad that you heard when I suggested that a couple of weeks ago and ran with the idea. Please let me know how I can help you. I've done some initial research into that that I'd be happy to share my notes with you." And it changed the dynamic of the conversation because then it wasn't me trying to defend or that was my idea. It was like, again, I go back to seeking a way to be collaborative because as I was taking my breath, the thought was if I react the wrong way, I'm going to be cut out of the project and this is like my babies kind of thing. Like this is what I was hired to do. So, how can I make it collaborative and maybe not be like the one that's in charge of it but at least be involved in it? And it actually ended up being a really good thing.
Carole Mahoney: So, I think that when those things happen, our first reaction is to want to get defensive. And if we can overcome that initial reaction and look at it from, "Okay, so how can I keep myself involved and included in this, and through that process still start to establish my thought leadership within the company and not let my ego and emotions take over?" It's hard to do. And sometimes you go away and take a breath and come back and it's probably not going to be the only time it ever happens to you. And so, that's how I handled it. I think depending on you and your personality and your style and obviously the culture and company that you're in, you find a way to acknowledge it openly and be collaborative about it because then it's not like you trying to fight for something. It's you trying to help create something.
Stacy Jackson: And that's a good idea. And it kind of goes to the concept of servant leadership, which in Good to Great, Jim Collins wrote about level five leaders, which are kind of like servant leaders really having the best success. So, taking that approach to be more collaborative to gain your idea back or at least tie yourself back to that idea, that makes a lot of sense.
Carole Mahoney: Yeah.
Alanna Jackson: And I think just the stepping away for a minute is a good idea because in those situations, you just want to slap somebody across the face to say, "Look, did I not just give you that same idea?" And just to take that high road about you mentioned it and you keep going. I think that's a really good idea and that's something that I know that Stacy and I both are cognizant about. Not even just for women, but if a man makes a suggestion and then it's overlooked and then another guy makes the suggestion and it's the same one, we try, "Oh, yeah, well, so kind of like what so-and-so mentioned," and try to remind them that, yeah, that idea did come from someone else first. We always try to make sure we're paying attention to where we can support other people and their suggestions, so that they get recognition.
Carole Mahoney: Yeah, I think one other thing that I would add to this is that in this same company, I also had a, I guess you'd call it a champion, but he was also a mentor of ways, and he was very good about helping me have specific feedback and how to present information so that it gets heard. And I've started learning new ways in order to become collaborative and being able to work in that way, so that the ideas did get heard because I've heard that before and there's been the trolls on LinkedIn of like, "Oh, well, if nobody's listening to you it's because you're not presenting yourself right." And I think sometimes we tend to be defensive, but like, no, it's not me.
Carole Mahoney: But always being willing to find that champion and mentor that will then help you so that when you do present your ideas that they are heard because I think sometimes, and this goes into maybe the way that we are socially wired, is that we tend to sometimes present our ideas in not the most confident way. Like, "Well, maybe we could do it this way," and we have this question in our voice instead of having the confidence that, "Yes, this is something that I believe in and I'm okay with if somebody doesn't agree with me," and being able to have that conversation. I think that also does help make a difference.
Stacy Jackson: I'm definitely guilty of that. Trying to placate and, well, maybe. I think everybody deals with it at some point.
Carole Mahoney: And then I think the other part of it, and this was something I learned also from this experience of the idea of like I suggested and someone else thought of it is to also remember why you're in the room. I think sometimes we tend to think, "Oh, I'm just so glad to be at the table," but there's a reason they asked you to be there. And so, not being afraid of saying, "I'm Carolyn, I'm here because it's my number one priority to find ways to leverage this technology to help the company grow and here's some of the ideas that I have around that." So that, it reminds everybody else in the room also of why you're there, but also reminds yourself of why you're there.
Alanna Jackson: And you did a video that was really good about this topic, which I'll make sure to share in the notes so that people can see that video as well because it was really good. It gave some good ideas on how to deal with these situations. Another thing that women deal with is the affinity bias. So, when people gravitate towards people that are more like themselves, so when the majority of leadership in companies are men, they're going to gravitate towards more men that are like themselves. So, what should women be doing in those situations to get noticed and gain the attention to be considered for those promotions?
Carole Mahoney: So, I think first is finding others that are also be advocates for you, so that it's not just you promoting yourself, but that others are saying, "You should really see what Alanna is doing over here. I think that this is going to be a great thing." And so, finding those people that will do that for you. And then as far as people liking and gravitating towards other people like themselves, just because you're a woman and just because your boss may be a man, that doesn't mean that you don't have anything in common. It doesn't mean that you have to like golf, but if you do, then that's something that you have in common. It doesn't mean that you have to like football, but if you're like me, you like football.
Carole Mahoney: But there's also other things that you have in common, probably either geographically where you grew up or something. And so, having those conversations and developing those relationships with those people isn't outside the realm of possibilities. You just have to be open and curious about what other ways might we be in common? Maybe it's even funny like sometimes I will talk with other men. I'm like, "You're just like my husband. He thinks the same way that you do." And we get along great. And so, sometimes that's enough to start building that rapport and relationship.
Alanna Jackson: Yeah, a few years back I worked for a company and I was an account manager and pretty much all of the account managers were women. And so, when our clients would come in, sometimes they would want to go out and play golf. A lot of the men wanted to play golf when they came to Florida and the account managers a lot of times got pushed off to the side because the executives wanted to go and play with them but we're the ones that had that relationship. So, the women that did play golf really had to fight and push for them to be able to get out on the golf course with them.
Alanna Jackson: And one of the ways they did that was our manager was a man and they had him push some of that and fight for it and they eventually started getting to go and play golf with their clients. And so, they had that person that was working on their side to help them get to that point and I think that's a big thing and key if you find yourself in those situations to find somebody that can go out there and champion for you.
Carole Mahoney: Yeah, and I think another thing that I've seen is that and I've done myself is that we tend to default waiting to be asked. And I've come to a place in my life where I'm not going to wait to be asked anymore, I'm going to do the asking. And so, finding that sales manager that'll be your champion if you don't have that champion in your organization is bind together with the other women in your organization and say, "We want to be a part of this as well." And have fun with it. Like I can totally see myself in that situation and being like, "Oh, so you were afraid we're going to beat you?"
Stacy Jackson: Right.
Carole Mahoney: If we were talking with people who are competitive, I also have a very big competitive streak as well. So, there's another thing that we have in common, so own that.
Alanna Jackson: And another thing that Alice, I don't know if you watch the TEDx show that Alice Heiman shared with... I'm going to mess up his name so I'm so sorry if I say this name wrong, but Dr. Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic.
Carole Mahoney: Pretty cool.
Alanna Jackson: I'm not sure if I said that right.
Carole Mahoney: I saw him do a TEDx in Cambridge on his talk, and I think, what was the book that he wrote about why do so many men become incompetent leaders or something? I haven't.
Alanna Jackson: Yeah, that was actually what he was talking about that a lot of companies promote based on confidence versus competence and that's why a lot of women don't get promoted. And so, is it that most leaders are putting these leadership positions because of that? Do you think it's a lot of it is that confidence versus competent situation?
Carole Mahoney: Unfortunately, I do see that a lot. And it's because the hiring criteria that they're using is into necessarily objective or provable, and so because of that, they default to their biases. And so, if someone seems or appears or comes off as more confident, you're going to feel more confident that they're going to do well in the role. So, I do see that unfortunately. They won't.
Carole Mahoney: As far as like, so how do we deal with those particular things? I think that as women, we have to embrace our accomplishments. I believe that we have to find those that are going to help us promote ourselves. And sometimes, it's even the own thoughts and things that we say to ourselves that cause us to not come off as being confident even though we are very confident and we should be confident in those skills. So, I think there's a number of things that we can do and one of those being becoming better at promoting ourselves.
Alanna Jackson: Do you think that one of the things that he said is that we need to stop promoting or expecting women to act like men and get on the men's level and we need to take those standards higher when it comes to the leadership or at least for when we're hiring men for those leadership positions. Do you think that that's something that a lot of people expect women to come down to a different level or act differently just to get those jobs?
Carole Mahoney: I think that women feel like they have to, whether that's a perception that is real or in their own minds perceived, and I've seen some women try to do that and the only thing I can say is it just doesn't come off as authentic and that I think goes even more into to your detriment. So, I don't think that we need to act and be more like men. I agree with what Dr. Tomas says in his talk is that we need to apply the same standard that we apply to women and apply them to men rather than trying to get women to, I don't want to say lower themselves to that standard, but that's essentially what he says so I will say that.
Carole Mahoney: And I think at the same time though, we also have to look at our hiring practices and how are we using or how are we combating our own biases in that process. And if you look at the research that talks about what happens with companies when women are in leadership positions, I know LeanIn.Org has a lot of those statistics there, it just makes bottom line sense to have the most confident person there. And so, I think that we are going to start to see a shift in how people think about their hiring as being a much more objective competency based, measurable rather than here's someone who I like, who I feel confident. They're a big ticket person and so we're going to hire them because we know that they're going to get it done somehow. Maybe. Hopefully.
Stacy Jackson: So Carole, you've given us a lot of great information today and advice. Is there anything else you'd like to share as far as tips that both men and women need to remember when it comes to empowering women in the workplace?
Carole Mahoney: I'll start with men. And I think for men, if you are someone who does want to be that champion of women and you're not sure how to start, I think the simple and easiest place is to ask, how can I support you? And if you are in a meeting with a woman and she shares an idea of supporting that and if no one else is hearing it, saying, "Alanna has a great idea. Did you hear what impact of that might be?"
Carole Mahoney: And for women, I think that, you mentioned the video that you'll share with everyone, but I think it comes down to examining your own belief system and how that either serves you or doesn't serve you and what are the things that trigger that and try to apply some logic to take the emotion out of situations and to build yourself up. Write down the things that you've accomplished and what it took for you to get there. Because sometimes we tend to, "Well, I just did this." And, "I did that, but it was really so-and-so that did that," and really take ownership of the things that you've accomplished to build that confidence in your own competencies.
Alanna Jackson: That's a great idea because we often forget what it actually took to get to where we are sometimes. And when you look back you're like, "Man, I did a lot. That was awesome." That's a great idea. So, we have one last question for you and it's a just for fun question.
Carole Mahoney: Right.
Alanna Jackson: So, if you weren't busy being the chief sales coach at Unbound Growth, what would your dream job be?
Carole Mahoney: My dream job would probably be in a greenhouse somewhere with my hands in the dirt, growing some incredible plants and flowers and tomatoes and herbal medicines that I could just be digging in the garden every single day and helping people with whatever I grow.
Stacy Jackson: Oh, that's nice.
Alanna Jackson: That is definitely not mine, but I commend you for it. I am not a yard first.
Carole Mahoney: I'm infamous.
Alanna Jackson: Our grandmother was though. She was always out in the yard working.
Carole Mahoney: There are so many therapeutic benefits to it. But I also believe too that what we put into our bodies is...our food is our medicine and that we can have the ability to heal ourselves and that we need to be closer to nature. So, if I wasn't doing what I'm doing now and working with salespeople and leaders every day to really get some sales performance improvement going on, it would be helping people in digging in the dirt and helping their physical bodies. So, for me it's like it comes down to how you're able to give back to the world and make it a better place and I've a few of them. I think of gardening as my way of leaving it in a better place than I found it.
Alanna Jackson: Oh, that's a good way to put it. I like that.
Stacy Jackson: I think it's sad that more people don't get to garden. I know growing up some of my favorite memories are working in the garden when my great grandparents or my grandparents shucking corn, shelling beans. It was just a wonderful time to spend with people and nowadays not have a phone in front of your face.
Alanna Jackson: Have your eyes on a phone or something.
Carole Mahoney: Yeah, I remember having my teenage sons help me in the garden and whenever they were angry or mad about something, I'm like, "All right, let's go in the garden and start cutting weeds and pulling things and taking out all of our aggressions into the dark." And it's interesting because not only do you get that physical exercise, there's actually some Science that shows that five organisms that are released when you're working with soil help to fight depression and anxiety. So, there's all these other benefits too.
Alanna Jackson: Wow, yeah, like I said, it's not one of my favorite things to do, but I know that when I do pull weeds, once you start getting into it, it is somewhat relaxing in a way.
Carole Mahoney: It’s making order out of chaos.
Alanna Jackson: We're not into that.
Carole Mahoney: That's kind of how I think of sales coaching and gardening. The thing that they have in common for me is making order out of chaos.
Stacy Jackson: Oh, yeah.
Alanna Jackson: There you go.
Carole Mahoney: That's my connection between the two.
Stacy Jackson: Well, Carole, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your insights on how to battle the bias of women in sales marketing phase. If our audience would like to get in touch with you or follow you online, what's the best way for them to do that?
Carole Mahoney: They can definitely go to the website at unboundgrowth.com. If you go to LinkedIn and search for me, Carole with an E at the end, then you probably will find me there and you can get in touch with me through the website. You can schedule a call there or direct message me on LinkedIn as well.
Alanna Jackson: And we'll also have all of her contact information in the show notes for you. And if you want to get in touch with me or Stacy, you can reach us on social. On Twitter you can find Stacy @stacy_jax, that's S-T-A-C-Y_J-A-X, and you can find me @alanna_jax. That's A-L-A-N-N-A_J-A-X. And if you're not a Twitter fan, you can always look us up on LinkedIn. And finally, don't forget, you can also leave a voicemail on the Anchor mobile app or on our anchor.fm show page. Thanks for joining us guys. See you next week.
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